Thursday, January 8, 2009

Gays in the Military and Women on Submarines

Once again this issue, much like females on submarines raises its ugly head with the new administration. The issue is one in the same because the military isn't like any other job in America and our living conditions are not like most civilians. We have very limited space and funds to allow for privacy and separation of the sexes. On submarines there is precious little privacy and even less toilets/showers.

Under current American mores, we are not comfortable with the sexes mixing in the shower or the head, so we do not have women on submarines on a regular basis. When we do have female visitors, we restrict areas and head times to accommodate the delicate sensibilities of all involved. This is the same issue when you start adding additional sexual orientation groups to this limiting environment. We can not accommodate male, homosexual male, female, homosexual female, and "other" in the limited facilities available either in combat or on a submarine.

You can get all the outsiders you want to line up and say how great it is to allow the gays to serve in the open, but this isn't a 9 to 5 job where you go home and shower alone or the significant other of your choice. This is long separations, rough conditions, and limited facilities that everyone has to share. If it is okay for females to feel uncomfortable and demand separate facilities or at least special hours, so they don't have to feel violated then it goes to reason that everyone should be afforded that right.

I am well aware that many homosexuals proudly serve in today's military and that is just great, but their personal sexual preference would become an issue if it were public knowledge within the unit because there are a lot of people that would find it uncomfortable cohabitating and showering with someone that sees them as an object of sexual desire (see simple male and female example). Until America puts aside its moral standards and opts for fully unisex living, then the military should retain "don't ask, don't tell" and no women on submarines. This is the only reasonable solution because as Joel over on TSSBP has suggested to allow anyone who wants out of the military because of this change in policy can with no penalty would decimate the force and ruin recruiting for the above stated reason. Additionally, the repeal would open the door to huge discrimination issues from all quarters.


  1. Yes, I see how 'macho' you are. I would like to see one day they build submarines only for women with the same regulations... NO MEN ALLOWED BECAUSE THEY ACT BASED ON INSTINCTS. PLEASE KEEP YOUR STUFF INSIDE YOUR PANTS.

    In terms of not letting gay people inside submarines because of their sexual preference, don't be a moron!! So it's ok for you 'macho' guys to brag about your 'packages' with your peers while showering but you can't stand a gay looking at it? What? Are you afraid a gay is going to rape you? Chances are that you're already living with some that are still in the closet.

    In conclusion, when I read this article it just reminds me of how many uneducated people enters the armed forces, finally get an education but are still social apes.

  2. The point was the hypocrisy of the gay argument. I really don't care if there are gay people or women on submarines, but that everyone is treated equally. If there has to be separate facilities for women then men should be afforded the same consideration, but that can never happen as men we are asked just to suck everything up and have no opinion. I for one fought for the right to have an opinion and if I play devil's advocate at times I am entitled.

    I am sorry you were offended and if you read some of the other stuff here you would find that I think that certain laws and movements are misguided as well. I know that I served with homosexuals and have close married lesbian friends, but that doesn't change the hypocrisy that since men and women are different that is the reason to separate them because now it becomes irrelevant.

    Feel free to respond and try to keep the bigger picture in mind. I like the social ape comment from someone that doesn't have the decency to introduce themselves.

  3. It’s about being comfortable in a work environment. Who cares about who you want to have sex with... Just keep it to yourself in a work environment. Being on sea duty, in the United States Navy, you are in a work environment 24 hours a day. I’m a woman in the military and I would never want to shower with a person that would make me feel uncomfortable, that would affect my work as well as my moral. Keeping sexuality and sexual preference to one’s self can sustain that comfortable environment. The don’t ask don’t tell policy just simply protects both parties from discrimination, which this country is big on. Just an opinion from a PS3(SW) last name Johnson on board the USS WASP LHD1

  4. PS3,
    That is a wonderful sentiment for someone that has separate facilities and bunk rooms, but on a submarine there is zero privacy and there is no hiding from the situation. The reason that female officers on subs is going forward is because the facility for officers is already separated and by having a sign they can allow a minority to have privacy. The same does not go for the enlisted personnel because there is such a limited amount of facilities to begin with it makes it almost impossible to make exclusionary arrangements in berthing. Figure that there are eight showers for 120 enlisted people and they are divided into two. Those eight showers must accommodate a third of the crew every eight hours, which makes them very busy and there is zero privacy. It is bad enough to having 20 guys all trying to do their business in such tight quarters, but now add in a group of say a group of 5-10 females.

    How comfortable are you getting in and out of the shower with twenty guys hanging around? Are you comfortable with getting in and out of the shower in your berthing with fully serving homosexuals? I know it is perfectly fine for gays to serve and the close quarters will have absolutely no effect on unit morale because that is the big Navy line, but the truth is that if females can demand separate facilities then why can't anyone else, since the separation is solely for sexual comfort reasons. I've said it before is is total hypocrisy to say we must have separate facilities for females and then force heterosexuals to shower with homosexuals regards whether they are male or female.

    None of it matters because the Navy has decided that it is perfectly fine to allow females and homosexuals of all flavors to inhabit the close quarters of submarines. A submarine is not a big LPD and there is not expectation of privacy, especially in the head prior to watch. That is the reason that the submarine force was one of the last places to allow women.

    I love the Navy and the submarine force, but God help them because this is one of their dumbest ideas ever.